Soapbox features enable our individual writers to voice their own opinions on hot topics, opinions that may not necessarily be the voice of the site. In this piece, Henry discusses how he's fed up of being ground down by grinding...
We really are spoiled for choice these days and, in part thanks to digital distribution, more games are releasing than we can keep up with. In Europe alone, the eShop had 43 new launches last week. They can’t all be winners, but for a traditionally quieter month, we’ve seen already big names like Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, Hitman 3 and Cyber Shadow. Factoring in other platforms with big releases like The Medium being added to the infamous “List”, there’s no wonder most of us have a backlog. Despite this pandemic, many of us still lead busy lives and when we get that chance to sit down with a game, you want to make the most of it.
Personally, I’m a huge fan of RPGs of various flavours. They are a commitment to get through, no denying that, but they’ve brought us some of gaming’s greatest stories and recently, Trails of Cold Steel has had me hooked. I had a few experiences with them growing up, starting with Pokémon Sapphire, Golden Sun, and Final Fantasy III, but I wasn’t truly onboard until a work friend loaned me SRPG Fire Emblem Awakening. Between that and Persona 5, which was recommended to me two years back, I played a lot of older RPGs. Something became increasingly clear as I did, however: so many of them just don’t respect your time.
Even if RPGs aren’t your speed, you’ve likely experienced grinding at some point; a mundane method of levelling up, battling with lower-level enemies until you reach a high enough level to take down the next boss. I’m hardly the first person to make this point over the years — and I know plenty will defend grinding, too — but in my eyes, it really makes for poor gameplay design. When a game becomes reliant on it for advancement, that gets repetitive and when that happens, my interest waivers.
That hit home during Final Fantasy IV. It took me a long time to defeat Zeromus spending hours levelling up across the Moon, and when I finally succeeded I felt both relieved and annoyed. I just wanted to see how it ended and sure, I could’ve gone to YouTube, but I’d have lost that satisfaction. Keep in mind that wasn’t exactly an option when it first launched either.
Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon sticks out too, where a significant number of units were under levelled going into the final mission. After eight painful attempts, Marth finally landed that critical hit on the Shadow Dragon to end things and only one other unit survived, Draug. It made The Charge of the Light Brigade look like a minor tiff. Speaking honestly, I’m not sure how I made it that far.
Games with harder difficulty options are an exception here. You can’t expect to just waltz through after all, grinding comes with the territory. If you’ve chosen lower difficulties though, this shouldn’t be an issue. We all want different things from games and there’s no shame in taking the easy option, regardless of what the “git gud” crowd say. The recent development of being able to change difficulty options midway through a playthrough has been particularly welcome. I made use of this during Hyrule Warriors: Age Of Calamity, helping those grindy segments become more palatable.
I can already hear you asking “what would you suggest as an alternative?”, but this isn’t a one size fits all situation. What works in one game might not for others, for numerous design reasons. I will give credit to Bravely Default's approach, which offers a slider to determine your random encounter rate and many games provide items with similar function. A lot of players aren’t as keen on random encounters anymore, so we’ve witnessed developers make enemies visible and approachable. I prefer this method, but there’s a temptation to skip fights that comes with it. Do it too often and the next boss will make you pay. More games also divide earned EXP between your wider party, even if they’re not in active combat, which helps to keep them balanced.
Of course, it isn’t just RPGs that are guilty of this. We’ve seen a more calculated approach to grinding in recent years within live service games too. I already struggle keeping up with new games, never mind those on my own list, or the ones designed to keep you coming back. On the Switch specifically, free-to-play games like Rocket League and Fortnite cater to this quite a lot. New events, modes, skins, double XP weekends: all ways of holding our interest until the next big update. We have to cut our losses somewhere as you simply can’t cover them all, a point recently brought up by our sister site, Push Square.
As an F2P game though, grind serves a separate function: incentivising people to buy microtransactions, as opposed to unlocking cosmetics or levels through hours of play. As their primary revenue stream however, this is more understandable. Rocket League does this, offering a “Rocket Pass” that also boosts your earned EXP, one you can level up quickly by buying credits. Using Apex Legends as another example, a game rumoured to be launching on Switch very shortly, it came under criticism during its seventh season for making it a lot tougher to level up normally, creating a backlash which led to Respawn Entertainment rebalancing it… twice.
When progress becomes a chore, you must ask yourself if it is worth it.
Free-to-play is one thing (though I want to be clear that those experiences will vary) but that mentality has spread to fully priced experiences, too. I realise I’m stretching here but Assassin’s Creed Odyssey — a game only available on Switch as a Japanese-exclusive cloud release — also faced widespread criticism about level grinding. Specifically, regarding how the main game only just covered the required XP to advance in some areas, even if you did every quest going. It wouldn’t have gained as much attention if Ubisoft didn’t also offer paid XP boosts, a cynical move designed to entice players towards microtransactions. If you’ve paid for a full priced retail game, you shouldn’t expect F2P style monetization.
Whether you seek narrative payoff from a 60-hour RPG or that fancy new car in Rocket League, experiences that keep us coming back are ones that reward us for sticking to it. When progress becomes a chore, you must ask yourself if it is worth it. With so many games vying for our time and money, it’s not unreasonable to hope they respect what you’ve committed to it. Grindier free-to-play games are unlikely to change soon — not when their revenue model depends on it — but I am pleased at how modern RPGs have begun tackling this issue. I’m looking forward to seeing how they continue evolving.
Are you someone that doesn't mind the occasional grind? Do you agree that it’s bad gameplay design? Let us know in the comments.
Comments 190
This is what stopped me from continuing Battle Chasers. You always started underleveled for a new zone AND party members don't share xp. So, you need to grind those on the sideline if you ever want to use them again.
Respect the grind, son.
@Strictlystyles No
Grinding serves a purpose to an extent but is always bad when it's a clear progression buffer (due to developer laziness). Games with good progression and encounter rates don't typically have a grinding issue.
I don't mind grinding if the combat is fun.
I haven’t even read this article, tbh.
But I love grinding.
If the game is fun and the mechanics smooth, I don’t mind at all grinding.
Most recently, I’ve put 300+++ hours into MUA3 grinding all character levels, getting rainbow iso-8’s, and unlocking rewards.
That game is so fun and grinding infinity rifts is mindless fun that I can do while watching horrible shows as chosen by my wife 😏!
The switch hand held function allows this. I love it.
I wonder how "grinding" is viewed by Japanese gamers.
(I mention Disgaea, and quietly roll away...)
It's only grinding if it isn't fun, otherwise it's called gameplay.
Yeah, no. You clearly haven’t played a well-designed dungeon crawler.
If you fight every enemy as you go, you shouldn't have to grind.
If you do, it is indeed bad game design.
@jump This. It's why I burnt out on Octopath traveler. The music, story and everything else was good, but the grind just wasn't fun at all.
I only hate grinding when it's done badly. By my definition, that's when you reach a boss (typically the final one) and it's designed to where there's absolutely no way to beat it unless you double back and grind.
This is why I stay away from RPG's, as I know the grinding (and time commitment in general) will be pretty crazy. 🤔
My view is that if you battle every enemy as you go through a game you should never have to grind.
Occasional grinding is not bad, but when you have to spend two hours grinding after each dungeon and boss that’s bs.
I'm not going to say grinding is bad game design (omg, who actually says that!) I've have some fond memories of grinding, aaaand some not so fond memories. It is what it is. If you rush through a game, you will hit a brick wall at some point and have to catch up with grinding.
Only games I like grinding is igavania/metroidvania games.
I have mixed feelings about it, but my overall opinion is that I don't mind grinding if the battle system is fun. I think the Tales series is one that does it well. You can adjust the difficulty in various ways at virtually any time, and the game rewards you for taking on higher levels, but doesn't hold you back from anything worthwhile if you decide to play on the lowest level and plow through everything.
But that wouldn't matter if the game isn't fun, and if I find myself using auto-battle in a game, that's a sign that something's off.
There was a time when I didn't mind grinding at all (like when I was a kid). Now life is too busy for that. It's probably why I don't play as many RPGs as I used to. I don't mind battling enemies on my way to the next destination in a game. If I have to grind though, my interest fizzles pretty quickly. This is why I am thankful for casual play modes becoming more common.
Here’s the thing, I kinda agree and disagree.
1) Gameplay is king...while I may not be progressing through plot devices and narrative...battle after battle is actual gameplay, and I prefer that over dicking around town or questing or exploring or anything else not playing.
2) Where I agree is: running in circles to find enemies, so you can enjoy the actual meat of the game is dumb...and you still have to advance the plot somehow, usually by ignoring the actual game and doing some stupid *****
It’s more a problem with the RPG genre...better to just buy action games IMO. Put the fun in my veins, cause I don’t need a bunch of plot chores.
Wow THANK YOU for saying what I've felt for a while. Love the piece! I can't sign off on games that force you to grind for a few hours to beat that next boss. What's even worse, is when a game let's you coast through the entirety of its journey only to hit a rock well at the final boss because you aren't leveled enough. Why not have it gradually get harder? Makes no sense to me. It's an outdated and ridiculous design that me personally, has no time for. Thats my one concern getting into JRPGs more frequently now is how grundy will it be. I somewhat ran into this issue with the final boss of XC:DE. I crushed nearly every boss in that game until the final and unfortunately had to turn it on easy at that point to not waste anymore time.
Hoping BDII isn't as grindy since that's next on my purchase list.
depends on the game a good srpg i dont mind the grind. but especially ubisoft games of recent few years with the added grind for the sake of it. I now avoid their games.
The comment about Assassin’s Creed Odyssey is also laughably untrue. I’ve been playing the game for two weeks and I’m at level 39 already without going out my way to grind. There are also difficulty options. There is more than enough XP and all this shows is the author didn’t play that game.
Grinding is just another word for growing. Like working it's repetitive the more you grind the more you get use to the process of doing it and you will eventually grow and gain enough skills to help you in your game just like how you grow and improve in reality to help you in your boring life.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it poor gameplay. As others have said, it is gameplay dependent--some games have fun grinding and others have not fun grinding.
bravely default's slider was great
i'm not into overworld encounters if there's too many enemies or they respawn cause i kind of go after every enemy until i notice i accidently over leveled then i end up skipping fights even with enemies i haven't fought before or take em out too fast to know what their schtick was. so i prefer random encounters so i can focus less on self managing difficulty.
grinding could also be a way to get people to retry missions using different tools and more skill or be relaxing to do on a commute or with audio only entertainment.
respecting people's time is kind of more complex
What's up with people complaining about stuff "not respecting their time" these last few years? It's a weird complaint. There's no shortage of short, snappy experiences out there. Go play one of those.
Anyway, grinding CAN be a lazy way to cover up structural shortcomings in a game's combat and progression systems, but games can also be designed around the concept of grinding. Series like Disgaea, Diablo, Monster Hunter, Etrian Odyssey, etc. wouldn't be the same at all if they didn't emphasize and facilitate grinding. Now, you might not personally enjoy that, but none of those series are guilty of "poor gameplay design."
Depends on the grind.
Casltevania Dawn of Sorrow = bad grind. So bad, it’s been patched on romhacking website because it turns out that your luck stat was bugged and didn’t impact soul drops.
Dark Souls 2 - farming for mad warrior set in Belfry Luna. Bad grind. He only spawns randomly, and sometimes drops duplicate gear. Takes way too long.
MMORPG - the worst grind, because it’s designed to commit you and get you invested to spend money.
Dragon Warrior series - the early games were “Grind - The Game,” but I would put these and other old RPGs such as final fantasy and chrono trigger under the good grind.
NINJA TRAINING IS A GRIND BUT THE REWARD IS A SHARPER SWORD
Fantasy life= ridiculous grind fest.
Xenoblade chronicles= perfect grind mechanics.
If the game is made well, even grinding can be fun. If it offers ample opportunities to use the game's own in-built mechanics (super exp enemies, multi-battle multipliers, etc.) it can be incredibly enjoyable to just mash away and get a good amount of levels before continuing. Also if the game offers additional rewards outside your basic level-ups, it helps a huge ton. If it's a required roadblock you need to clear, it can definitely hamper the enjoyment, but it's even worse when the combat is cumbersome or boring.
Some great examples from the top of my head are Disgaea games, Dragon Quest 8 (especially on 3DS since you can actually see and specifically hunt for Metal Slimes) and Bravely Default/Second.
To have a sizzling hot take, grinding, by default, is never a bad thing, it's what's around it that decides if it's good or bad.
I've never been into grinding for experience or for turn based RPGs. I understand the strategy component but I dislike giving a command and not actually having control over the outcome. In Mario games, pushing the jump button always results in what I intended. Any errors are my own fault and not that of what the computer code decides.
@Ralizah That’s a good point, but that implies that you have to know if there is grinding before you get there. Sometimes you can research it, but there have been a few times where it’s caught me off guard.
When I played Mario 3D Land, I had no idea that I had to obtain a certain number of giant coins to proceed, so when I get to the end area only to be notified that I need more coins....that’s an example of a game not respecting the players time or effort put into it. Now instead of choosing to go back and grind the game for all the coins I missed, I just chose to play another game.
NINJA RESOLVED
I enjoy it depending on the game. Like in DQ11, it was super satisfying, but thats because of the spell effects and the general style of the game, and earning skill points on leveling up is like CRACK to me
I'm fine with grinding, but only to a certain extent. I just finished FF5 Advance, and I ended up having spent 115 hours on that save just to have a chance at beating the true superbosses. I'd be fine if it was half that length, but when you get to over 100 hours, 50 of which were due to grinding, that's a bit too much. Then again, that's partially my fault for grinding too early, but the point still stands that that's way too slow.
Edit: One thing I forgot to mention: Grinding a new party member from a low level when the rest of your party is all at very high levels is the best feeling an RPG can give. I love seeing a party member gain 20+ levels in one battle, it just feels so good.
Something being addictive does not equate to it being good. Most of the people defending RPG/JRPG grinding are simply addicted to it, the same way people get addicted to gambling. It's meant to exploit you, and it does so efficiently.
True grind is action and skill grind, where you as a person outside of the game become better, even if "leveling up" means you're in general better and smarter at playing games. At least that's something that transfers to other things a person does.
That being said, people are going to consume whatever they feel like consuming, regardless of whether it's good for them or whether it respects their time.
@alexybubble I grinded a little bit for FF5 Advance which I beat last month but I didn’t actually find it that bad. Barehanded is so ludicrous early game that it made the initial hump OK and you only really need to max out a couple of jobs for normal play.
@nessisonett
Same. Playing AC Odyssey too and find that I am a bit too strong at times. Even with scaling.
The only games I enjoy grinding in are Dragon Quest and Fantasy Life. For some reason it doesn't bother me in those.
Yet random battles in Pokemon drive my nuts.
@BloodNinja That's not "grinding," though. Star Coins aren't something you endlessly grind. There's a specific number of them in the game, and they're used to gate progression so you don't just quickly blow through the game. They also encourage exploration.
You're pretty much saying "[x] doesn't respect my time because I'm forced to play the game and engage with its systems to complete it." In which case... I dunno. At that point, I have to question why you're even playing the game in the first place.
Work the grinding into optional side quests and I rarely even notice. Then, make a few optional quests/bosses only beatable after grinding to reward those who want to bother with it. In other words, take the Xenoblade Chronicles approach.
I dunno, it depends how much is involved. Also, if you’re just smashing the A button without exploring battle strategies then you deserve to grind.
@COVIDberry Disgaea would make this writer cry. It's a grind simulator.
I enjoy grinding when it's by choice. But if it's required to do so for hours in order to continue, no.
To this day, my favorite grinding was in X-Men Legends 1, in the danger room missions. My brother and I spent hours doing those over and over and over. The sequels (XML2, MUA 1-3) never quite captured this for me.
Grinding in Age of Calamity was fine, because I knew I would probably beat the next level without doing it, but I often did 30 mins of grinding if I was to play as a character I wasn't confident in
I have mixed feelings on this as a lot of the examples given don't really require much grinding. Final Fantasy IV for example can be beaten by just the random encounters you hit along the way if you learn how to use items, spells and exploit weaknesses. I usually play through it without power leveling unless I am going after the optional quests.
Dragon Quest I, II, and III was designed with death as a feature, with the player pushing as far as the could before death and then taking another run at it. It was our aversion to death that makes it into a grindfest.
So sometimes the grinding we complain about is our own making and not due to design. A lot of modern games however pad their gameplay with grinds, and it seems to have become popular in the N64 era especially.
I always level grind in RPG games. In some RPG games, if you dont level grind to level up then you dont get certain spells or abilities.
Look at Final Fantasy VI for instance. Celes and Terra theyre natural magic spell users. If you dont level either of them up to a certain spell then they wont learn Curaga or Holy or whatever.
Even in a Tales of game like Xillia, the only way you get certain arte attacks/magic spells is if you level up and use certain attacks multiple times etc.
If you dont like level grinding, well tough cookie. Deal with it. Random encounters and level grinding have and always will be essential important to an RPG game whether you are against it or whatever.
In most RPGs, the amount of grinding you need depends on your skill level I'd say. Someone who's not good at Final Fantasy might need to grind to lv 99 to beat the final boss, but a good player could beat it at lv 20.
In the case of the old Final Fantasy games, the game don't force you to grind unless you consider exploring a cave grinding. I don't remember needing much extra grinding to beat any of the old FF games(In the remakes at least. 1,2 and 3 on NES might be something else in terms of difficulty)
Nothing about what they did to Animal Crossing? Grinding for resources and praying you’ll get the right balloon for a recipe sucked a lot of chill from that game.
I rarely find a need to grind. I actually enjoy games more if I'm a bit under leveled. RPGs give you plenty of options to deal with particularly hard enemy: items, skills, magic, etc. but some disregard most if not all of those and grind until they can beat the enemy by just pressing A until they win.
I love grinding, but AAAAAAAAH THE MOON OF FFIV!!! I didn't finish that game because of that fr*#+in Moon! I love grinding, but not in the end game. IT'S THE ENDGAME. Now I want to play FFIV again...
Grinding is one way to re-balance a game. Unlike difficulty sliders, it makes players think they’ve earned it. Grinding out levels with a beer or two is a great way to relax before bed.
I hope he doesn't fin out about Monster Hunter. It wouldn't be good for his health....
Monster hunter 3 (tri) really tested the grinding sometimes being so cruel that you have to kill a beast 50 times to get the drops. Where as modern monster games seem to have forgotten how to grind and just make it too easy!
Where’s the balance?
@Terra then go somewhere else, rpgs ain’t for you
@Strictlystyles Ever hear of action RPGs, champ?
Grinding is part of RPG's. I love the feeling of seeing my characters grow so they can stand up to that one boss. For me, that's part of the adventure. Because of millenials that don't like grinding we get easy trash like Pokemon ORAS.
Grinding exist in all games that require you to get level up, get new perks or get new gear. It's up to the developer to balance things out, so it doesn't feel to grindy (and you can always take a break from a game if it bores you).
@COVIDberry eh a lot of those don’t count tbh. Even those that have a grind should still be respected.
Grinding became fun when it involved loot. Grinding to be able to beat a boss is the most primitive and boring form.
It's a very old-school thing that has become more and more old-fashioned. Dragon quest xi has lots of grinding but the leveling up system makes it more tolerable. Final Fantasy VIII on the other hand...I had to use the MAX all feature because I was getting tired of the absurdly long battles.
It depends on the game. Final Fantasy, Persona, Xenoblade, Skyrim, Mass Effect... I'm expecting somewhat to intense amount of grinding to really push the story forward. Multiplayer games, obviously Battlefield and Call of Duty.
Assassin's Creed... this is why I have stopped after Syndicate. How do you go from a game that had a skill tree to an RPG mechanic? It seems to kill the thrill of it all for me in that series. I understand, people like the new ones; the sales speak for themselves along with the reviews, but it isn't for me. The original titles had great pacing and fun mechanics, where I'd see the new ones as senseless grinding to progress in a slower manner compared to the previous one. Believe me, I know how troubled III, Rogue and Unity were compared to these ones. Origins, Odyssey and Valhalla just don't appeal to me like the old ones did.
Rocket League, well, I'm on the fence since I don't play the multiplayer aspect. I enjoy the leveling system, but it's a casual play for me. Same with Tetris 99.
To say a grind is a "poor design mechanic", that's a bit of a stretch. In certain circumstances, I think grinding would be pointless. However, churning all that time away on Final Fantasy VII, VIII and IX is kind of fun to me. Same thing with Borderlands with ALL THE LOOT!
@Strictlystyles Élite players don't tell people to stop playing. Let me know when you're élite enough for Danmaku or Enter the Gungeon. Then we'll talk about RPGs, champ.
Coughs and nods towards a certain pokemon game
I don't mind grinding if I'm really enjoying the game and know the grind will be worth it. I recently spent a lot of time with Ys Origins and the combat is so enjoyable, that it was a pleasure to grind fun grinding and you level up fairly quickly too.
I highly recommend Ys Origins by the way. If you like action RPG's, you'll love it. I got it on sale for under a tenner.
@Ralizah It’s easy to make a poor argument by generalizing to the point of nothingness, dude LOL
It felt like a grind and didn’t respect my time, end of story.
NINJA APPROVED
I say this as someone who absolutely hates grinding 90% of the time. But if you feel tempted to skip fights in a game where fights are the main source of gameplay and progression, you are not playing a game that you enjoy. You're basically saying, "This game would be fun if you just removed all the gameplay from it." Grinding IS the fun gameplay in some games. And some people like that. Some people's enjoyment of a game is sourced from disengaging their brain and doing a repetitive task over and over again because it's cathartic. Grinding is not inherently bad design. Games that grind can still be poorly designed, and grinding can be implemented poorly, I'm not arguing that. However, if you think grinding is inherently bad design because it wastes your time, that might be a strong sign that YOU DON'T LIKE THAT GAME. Grinding isn't wasting or disrespecting your time. YOU are disrespecting your time by playing a game that you're not enjoying. Stop playing things you don't like. Stop demanding that they be something else that you do like. It's ok that not every game is for every person.
Some of us enjoy that poor game design, myself included. I love knowing that when I play a grindy RPG (as long as the game is fun), I can overcome any boss as long as I am overleveled. It brings me relief in a harder game. I am currently playing Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories on GBA so I am currently experiencing that grindy bliss.
@progx go play origins or odyssey, the rpg mechanic really made the game a bit more enjoyable. As much as I loved the combo system in syndicate. Very refreshing
Yes, thank you! I hate pointless, tedious grinding to reach that next arbitrary level requirement to continue the story! My list of biggest offenders of recent Nintendo systems are: Xenoblade Chronicles series (particiularly X and the golden country stand alone expansion to 2), pokemon and Fire Emblem.
@COVIDberry if you haven’t lost a Jedi character In the first Star Wars mmo Then we can’t talk. Like I said, if you feel it’s a grind and the game doesn’t respect your time you can leave, thats a you problem. Maybe the games aren’t for you. You can always find a new game.
But how else can a company boast the game is 200 hours long? Cause if I pay money for some game; it better last me a year of 40 hour a week playing....
Not really. Grinding is horrific as is most stuff put in games to 'extend' time. I've played quite a few games that should've stopped at say 6 hours but were extended with pointless stuff that didn't matter.
When a game says specifically you need to be certain much higher level then you currently are to continue the story and you have a choice of mindless killing of things or mindless fetching of things for hours. Looking at you Xenoblade Chronicles X and Golden Country!
@Strictlystyles Nintendo calls them Friend Codes, but for you I want an Enemy Code. I'd love to play head-on-head against you in something or other. And not a bloody MMO that has disappeared...
I feel like grinding is archaic but it offers two benefits. It levels the playing field for a less technically inclined player and it allows for turn based combat. RPGs still have not as a whole moved on to skill based systems and games that level with you are hit or miss.
Another thing that is a waste of time are damage sponges. I don’t want to give myself carpel tunnel to clear a level. I wish games treated combat the way fighting games do; the AI becomes more difficult, not the amount of hits it can take.
I think the only game that I grind for fun is Sakuna because I enjoy the combat.
To be fair, a lot of games that have the "ability" to grind only require it if the person playing has no grasp on the mechanics of the game, or has done nothing to explore or understand the world.
One of my more memorable moments of years gone by is when somebody I knew was trying out Final Fantasy VII and was apparently having a great deal of difficulty for some reason on relatively early game main story bosses and getting frustrated. When I looked at the current state of their save file to see what was up, he had not once purchased or changed any materia for the character equipment, and his inventory was basically non-existent. So they were literally just mashing the attack button, not strategizing, grinding experience points as their only method of advancing and ignoring everything else, and I could tell at a glance they hadn't done much exploring beyond trying to run to main story checkpoints based on their inventory and available equipment. Yeah, trying to play the game that way wouldn't be fun or practical.
Arcade gaming is the ultimate form of grinding. You basically only play to better your high score (or to better others high scores).
That's why I can never play arcade games for a prolonged period.
Then the different arcade machine makers of course introduced continue options to basically make you pay to win.
But that was after the golden era of arcade gaming was over (always hated that personally, because you had to wait 10 seconds to be able to start a new game completely from the start).
@nessisonett It's pretty accurate. To get to the main quests, you're required to level up several times, and this usually involves completing a lot of tedious side quests. Maybe you've been doing that anyway and don't mind it, but it can feel like a drag.
@nessisonett I respectfully disagree about Assassin’s Creed Odyssey. For me that game did require a ton of grinding to meet the expected arbitrary levels of certain enemies, or else you get one-shot-ed. If you just want to advance the main quest, at several points you do need to grind, and I'd say even the side quests require grinding as well (remembering Medusa gives me PTSD)
@dto1984 I don’t understand how you could be too low a level. Each main quest gives almost a full level’s worth of XP. You must be completely ignoring the side quests and locations too. It’s only a grind if you don’t engage with the gameplay mechanics as there are loads of useful skills and if you set the difficulty to easy then you can destroy enemies a good few levels above you.
Grinding is fine and good in a game that enjoy. So I disagree.
I feel like grinding is not too bad as long as it's not extremely hard to get experience. Hyrule Warriors I remember I had to grind I would say maybe three or four hours for some of the challenges. but the game progression if you just go with the standard story mode it always seems that I had enough exp or almost enough exp or I didn't have to grind much.
I'm replaying Hyrule Warriors on the new 3DS, ( put like 300 hours into the Wii U version about 3 years ago) I am enjoying it again even if most of the game is the same as it was on Wii U, Linkle is fun and I forgot how much I enjoyed that game, I think I will probably beat it on the 3DS as well.
If you take the grinding out of RPGs, you're left with nothing but walking simulators. Grinding is the name of the game. The only difference between the modern RPG and the classics is we've gotten way better at hiding it.
Take Pokemon. At the end of the day, the goal of every Pokemon game is "Take this level 5 Pokemon and power through random encounters until you've assembled the best team of Level 70 (give or take) Pokemon you can. But you don't notice because the game gives you sense that the random encounters have meaning. Your Bulbasaur isn't grinding, he's TRAINING. He's getting better with every battle and he'll be the one to deliver the final blow to the Elite Four.
Final Fantasy has evolved the tactic over the years of balancing the game so you're almost always at about the right level when you reach your next destination. Other games like Xenoblade give you a multitude of sidequests to complete while you're out there boosting your stats.
It's not about eliminating grinding. It's about keeping it fun.
Some of us don't actually mind. Dungeon crawlers like PSO and Diablo 3 are my favourite types of games, where I can make my own character and then spend my time mowing down badguys, often with friends. Because these games have little-to-no story you can just pick them up in between other titles.
HOWEVER grinding for levels outside of games built around the mechanic is a chore. I gave up on AC Origins and Odyssey for this very reason and having to redo races on Forza Horizon 4 just to grind your way up to the next reward is beyond dull.
Yes! Grinding is the worst.
Doing side quests is not grinding, so if I hit a wall because I’ve been skipping side quests, that’s fair enough. With Xenoblade Chronicles there’s no need for grinding because there are always side quests to do which let you level up naturally.
But if I’ve fought all the battles I’ve come across, completed the side quests and I’m on top of the game mechanics - then yes, I should be able to progress through the story. (Getting ready to fight super-bosses is a different matter.)
This caused me to bounce off Dragon Quest VIII (3DS) hard. I was only 5 hours in, had done everything on the way, and the second boss just destroyed me - there was no tactics to make it past that fight. I checked online and yup, the game just expects massive grinding sessions between every dungeon. No thanks, I’d rather play a game that doesn’t put me in purgatory every hour or so...
@Bizzyb I think "developer laziness" is a terrible thing to assume. Most developers are actually very hard working and try to do as much as they can. Its not laziness, its a lack of resources and/or time
This is why I love Chrono Trigger so much. I never feel overleveled or underleveled.
You know what didn't respect my time? The second half of Bravely Default.
@nessisonett Except for when you're using Retroachievements, which requires that you max out every job for every character for a specific achievement. Plus, even with fully maxed out jobs and everyone at level 99, I still had a good amount of trouble with Omega Mk. II and Neo Shinryu. My main issue was just that I decided to grind in the 2nd world (I was trying to go in spoiler free, so I didn't know that movers gave ludicrous amounts of AP), so I just got screwed over there. Its completely my fault that it did take that long, but that doesn't help the superbosses being so hard.
@alexybubble Oh nice, I’ve got really into RetroAchievements over the past few weeks. At that point I’d say that it’s not the original game’s fault as it didn’t really expect you to max out every job though. I grinded a bunch of Objet D’Arts back in world 1 which was a supremely stupid thing to do considering Movers exist! Like you, I was spoiler free though and didn’t think things through 😅
I think it really depends on your life situation. I have about an hour every day to chill out and game. If I’m just grinding, and not advancing in the game at a reasonable pace, the game is getting abandoned when the next big release comes. I never finished Xenoblade Chronicles 2 because of this.
@drewber2635 Agreed, and I only use that term in the most extreme/aggrieved sense.
I hate grinding in any game. It severly impacts the enjoyment for me personally!
I love that FFIV art.
JRPGs seem to have two appealing aspect: the battle system and the story. People who come in interested in the story aspects of a JRPG might be frustrated having to deal with complex battle systems and level grinding. It's unfortunate that this is the case. The story, world and characters appeal to you, but you're stuck fiddling with a progression tree or constantly fighting the same monsters. It's a perfectly reasonable complaint, but that battle system and the grind is core to gameplay. It is part of why some of us enjoy the genre.
Easy games dont respect my intelligence
Final Fantasy without the grind is just a visual novel. The grind is the gameplay loop, and it's fun. It's how you get the gold to get the gear that gets you the girl. It's the meat of the game, and the story and cut scenes are the gravy.
I feel like you don't like RPG's and should just stick to Visual Novels and all their creepiness.
Earthbound would be a better game as an action RPG.
Field Skills in XBC2 are a great example of bad grind. If I can’t progress in the story because I don’t have a specific blade with a specific field skill that I need to grind in order progress the main story instead of a side mission, that’s when I feel it’s gone too far
I guess it’s like what pokemon should be. You can use type advantages and clever stat changing moves to beat them, or go away and grind for a bit.
Should be a choice.
Luckily Pokemon is now the opposite whereas if you even remotely grind you’re hideously over levelled
I've never liked grinding, not even in the old Pokemon games. The newer Pokemon games are too easy, but gens 4 (not counting HGSS) and 5 had the balance near perfect. The exp. candy in Pokemon Sword and Shield was a pretty good way around grinding, but it made the games even easier if you used them during the main story. Grinding overall is not fun though, it's the reason I don't mind looking up easy ways to cheese exp. in Dragon Quest and Kingdom Hearts, and why I never beat all of the KH secret bosses. The Xenoblade games were pretty grindy, but XCX2 was the worst to me because it had a nasty habit of forcing you to use it's convoluted combo system even if you decided to grind. Monster Hunter is a grind fest, but the online component makes it much more bearable than most games I've played.
Edit: To answer the question, I do think it is bad game design. It makes some games unnecessarily long and other games unnecessarily longer. All of the Xenoblade games are already long, so any amount of grind in those is pretty unbearable.
the only game ive ever really disliked the grind for was pokemon pre-gen 6
in basically any other rpg ive played where grinding is something i even do im doing it for an optional thing that i dont need to do at all or because its ff7 and that game is just absurdly fun to me
i dont say 3d platformers are inherently bad game design cause some of them have combat mechanics
The last JRPG I grinded through was Persona 3 Portable on PSP. I reached the "final boss", only realize that the game was only halfway finished. Then I read that I should be a certain level before the final boss, spent hours grinding (final gameplay came up to about 90 hours), then fought the final boss and it went down like a chump--I actually over-grinded to the point where the final boss was laughably simple.
When that was over, I told myself "never again".
@CurryPowderKeg79 That’s probably why I don’t mind it that much in Pokémon or more strategy RPGs but in standard “4 heroes with menus” Japanese RPG it’s unbearable. And why I stay away from the genre for the most part.
It’s not even a “git gud” situation, since it’s basically a stat check. There’s no skill in selecting “Attack” on some low level mobs over and over again.
Griding is a outdated and tedious mechanic, that sour your enjoament of game, anyone want to grind, just because this outdated and tedious mechanic force you to do this, because you are too underpowered compared to the final boss in the game you are playing, there must be a way to avoid this situation.
@Terra FF IV DS remedied grinding pretty well. It changed the battle system to a more strategic one, but if you could figure out what moves to use, you wouldn't need grinding one bit.
I love grinding in games. It’s probably weird but the act of doing the same thing over and over is very relaxing to me. That and completing tasks in the same order each time in games like farming sims.
@nessisonett The main quests give a lot of experience but the side quests don't always. There are many instances in which you need to grind a few levels to play the main quests comfortably. Playing on easy does make the combat a cakewalk, but that only removes a portion of the time it takes to grind the levels. You can explore the map and eventually find all the experience you need, but that doesn't make it any less time consuming, particularly after you've all ready put 50+ hours into the game.
@nessisonett Yeah. I still don't get how I'm supposed to be able to beat the superbosses without ludicrous amounts of grinding, though. Those things could easily wipe out my party after all of the grinding, so I can't even imagine how much worse it would be without the grinding.
Honestly Majority of games don't need grinding. The vast majority of the time is people having yet to understand the battle system fully. I had a friend who played persona 5 and was at a higher level then me and struggled at the 4th dungeon boss yet I one shot it.
Main reason. He wasn't using defensive buffs or debuffs on enemies.
The only time grinding makes sense is for superbosses.
@urrutiap While I agree with your sentiments, literally everyone in FF6 can learn Curaga or Holy by equipping the right Espers. Unless you really, really feel like grinding in the first half of the game for them to naturally learn it - which, to me, would be absurd - there's really very little incentive to invest the time needed for them to learn the spells naturally.
So how do you justify the gameplay in Animal Crossing? Half the game is basically about grinding (hitting trees and rocks, catching fish)
This is not the opinion of Goku or Vegeta.
They love go grind on 9x gravity vs small robots in a space station.
They are only able to take down the next boss when their lvl is over 9000.
I don't mind grinding at all, especially if it means getting some good rewards or being able to defeat an optional boss/monster etc. For example, in Xenoblade Chronicles, there are some late side quests that require to defeat high level unique monsters. For me, completing those quests and defeating those monsters was worth the grind.
I agree, grinding is lame. But almost all the time, even in old school RPGs you don't REALLY need to grind in the classic sense of just battling same old monsters over and over.
Instead I'd suggest to try tackle the next dungeon with what you have, explore, battle monsters and find loot and get stronger in that way. Way more exciting. And if you are having trouble with a boss maybe before grinding you should explore if you are making use of all your abilities and equipment, maybe you have something that'll resist the boss' element? Or you're not making full use of you buffs and debuffs for example?
Also as a general tip for most RPGs you should consider what to spend your money on, you don't necessarily need to upgrade all your gear on every character on every single opportunity (like I used to do).
I hate random encounters so hard. Octopath Traveler by default has encounters more frequent than the "rate of thought" meaning if I decide to do something like "backtrack to the fork" or "open that chest" whatever I was thinking about doing will be interrupted by a random encounter and I'm likely to forget whatever it was. This sucks. But with the passive skill that reduces the encounter rate (which basically forced me to get one character immediately in my party) the encounter rate is fine at about once per screen or a little less than once per thought. This rate was more than enough for me to over-level all my characters.
I generally speaking DO NOT grind for levels. Don't like it. I definitely don't like doing it when it's mandatory for basic gameplay. I don't mind grinding for rare materials to craft a particular thing one doesn't need but I want because that's my choice (provided the drop rate is reasonable). I don't mind too much grinding for other types of progression such as leveling a specific skill (kill 500 baddies with Frost). But the only time I've ever ran into a boss and not be high enough level to beat it was Quest 64 and I just gave up on that playthrough and didn't play again for like 10 years (when I beat it).
So, in summary, yeah forced grinding sucks. Grinding should be productive when optionally available for stretch goals.
I don't mind grinding if it's an option to help me get ahead, but I don't want to have to do it. Although I rarely play RPGs or games with grinding in general these days. Too little time, too many other shorter and just as fulfilling games to play. Even if I try I just can't get into most RPGs now.
It’s fine unless developers intentionally make it not fine. A good combat system also helps.
All I do is grind in Disgaea, I’ve never beaten one of them yet. It’s fun leveling up and building characters. Playing PSO on GameCube was nothing but grinding and I’ve probably put in 1000s or hours through out my life.
@Bizzyb I agree wholeheartedly. My favorite example of a game that hits it OIT OF THE PARK is ff7. You don't need to grind once to beat that game. If you skip to much you might pay, but smart management is rewarded with quicker story progression. Ff7 is a great game with a great story but just the sheer great game difficulty scaling is so good. Xc1 is too grindy for me and I loved xc2 and didn't have to grind once so I turned it on easier difficulty and it was awesome. I'm glad they added easy because it makes the game more ff7 style: good gameplay rewards you grinding is optional.
I say it's fine if combat is fun, but I think that if you take your time in an area you shouldn't have to grind for hours
I hate grinding. Just give side quests to fill that time and give enough xp. Seriously, the game is MUCH better if instead of having to grind I can just do side quests until I’m strong enough. Xenoblade usually let me do that, for example.
Dont hate me for this, but screw Octopath Traveller. Amazing art style epic sound design and soundtrack. But the grinding needed was horrific and it was ignored in so many reviews.
IT should have been everything i loved, but i got to a point where i couldnt do anything. Even using the EXP tricks didnt work.
What to think of Pokemon Go, where the only thing you actually do is grind.
Xp, stardust and pokemon candy.
Grind grind grind.
@ShadJV Xenoblade did it right. It was sort of a grind but it was hidden so well behind side quests and exploration that it just didnt matter. Persona 5 Royal nailed it, no need to grind. your level is always just about right and always keeps you going forward.
if grind is needed, then the system is unbalanced .....the old CRPGs never used this cheap way, enemies did not respawn, everything was perfectly balanced...grinding is just a bad design
As much as I love Gold/Silver/Crystal, grinding is the WORST thing about the game, and I think I have only once challenged Red and that was around 20 years ago.
Even HeartGold/SoulSilver neglected to fix the balance, arbitrarily making the wild Kanto Pokémon under-leveled purely to match the Gen I games, which I makes sense from an "in-universe" point of view, but not from a gameplay one, and consequently defeated the whole purpose of even being able to explore the Kanto routes in the first place.
And the less said about the hideously sluggish Gen IV games the better. I played them to death back then (especially as I had so few games) but I couldn't stomach them now.
I know the more recent Pokémon games cop flak for sharing experience across the party (and I agree that there should be a toggle to disable it) and while it can be mildly annoying as certain Pokémon in the party will outclass others, I have also taken a more flexible approach to raising Pokémon in newer games, especially now that HM slaves are no longer necessary, I now rotate between 8-12 Pokémon instead of 5-7 like I would have in earlier generations.
Bruh are you literally mentioning an old-style Fire Emblem game in an article about grinding?
You literally don't grind in that game. There are no random battles. If your units are under-leveled it's a result of how you built your army.
@earthinheritor No hate. Your experience was what happened. I'm curious what determines how much you need. I'll admit I wasn't very imaginative with my party. I find that Ophilia is essential for early heals, Cyrus is essential for analyzing weaknesses and breaking elemental weaknesses, and Olberic is essential for tanking hits for everyone else. It was a loooong time before I could run a party without them and even then I think Ophilia was always there.
Tessa and Hanit can easily be broken because Tressa can give you extra boost points for heavier attacks and Hanit can force an enemy to take their turns after all of your characters, which might be enough time for you to kill them.
I don't feel like the other 3 characters become particularly viable until midgame for some reason.
Oh, also a thing I did that may have made the game easier is I unlocked secondary jobs (not the secret ones) pretty early. Almost as soon as I could, and I might have had to escape high level fights to get to them. I remember dying on the way to the Merchant one. The game is very repetitive in patterns so once I knew where one of the second jobs was I figure out where the other 7 were easily.
Another thing that might have helped is the way I played the missions. I think I started with Ophilia then picked up Cyrus, then Olberic, then Tressa, then I just swapped out Tressa for the other 4 characters one at a time (so Ophilia/Cyrus/Olberic just get stronger from all these Chapter 1 missions). Then I think I started to do the chapter 2s like that but got bored so I kept my main three and did all 3 of Hanit's remaining quests, so again those folks got super strong so just... over time my party was always overleveled and over capable, even though I always had the skill on that reduced the random encounter rate.
I don't know that I'd call any of this advice. I'm just rambling cause it sucks to know some people might have a bad experience with the game if I recommend it (which I have).
I'm not a big fan of grinding, but even in games without required grinding I despise spells/skills stuck behind level ups or AP,etc in RPGs.You see a spell you want and then you battle to level up and get it, but by the time you reach that level you're so powerful you don't need the spell any more.
Ideally you should have access to as wide a range of a games options even without any grinding. That's why I like Pokémon's TM system.
I like the freedom of being able to sit around and make the harder parts of the game easier. But it can't take you hours to grind. How did this article not mention octopath, it has to be the most old school grind I've had to do in a while cause you have to level all the characters up to even do the story parts. Now that is a part of grinding I don't like, using characters you don't normally just to level up just to trigger story events.
@TimboSlice I learned this when I got a Wii U. I always heard complaints when playing my ps3, but as my Wii U and 3ds got better games, I used my ps3 less and less until I got a switch and it’s pretty much my only console. I am trying to play cyberpunk but again, because it’s not portable, it’s hard to find time to play. And with such a big backlog, it prob end up being just like Witcher 3 and coming to switch someday.
@Donutman Cyberpunk might come to switch as a streaming game but there won't be a direct port like the witcher 3, I can guarantee you that.
When grinding actually rewards the player with additional skills or spells, I enjoy it. Like back in ye olden dayes of Phantasy Star where you would get new techniques when you reached certain levels. If the game is instead structured to make you visit a guild or otherwise train your abilities in another fashion, then grinding just feels like a waste of time.
Grinding is fun if the battle system is great. Grandia, Ys, Disgaea, I like grinding if the gameplay is good and the progression is rewarding.
Grinding is not really bad game design, but it is a time waster.
Whilst I don't mind the occasional grind, I see your point. Grinding, like any activity on a game, is supposed to be rewarding and feel good. No game should purposefully frustrate the player, f2p or not. I'm the type of player who overlevels a bit on RPGs, it's fun for me.
But specifically for Pokémon, which is my favorite series, their efforts to remove grinding entirely are greatly appreciated. As a veteran player, even if I'm underleveled, the game is a breeze, since I know all the moves, type matchups etc.. I think I clocked about 30 hours until credits on Sword and Shield, and none of them were spent grinding. If a noob pick any of the older games, like RSE or DPPt, they might finish the game in about the same time, but a good chunk of it could potentially be spent grinding, and not the good satisfying type.
@FaroreAbhorsen So i did get the second jobs, well the ones i could get to without being killed. I did all chapters ones, then 2s. But half way through the 3s even the smaller enemies could lock me out of attacking. My hits were doing something.
I read that better gear helps but the better gear is stupid money.
I think i may have ignored the thief too long and i could have stolen some really good gear. i didnt do any of the bargaining stuff either so its all full price.
Im thinking that if you pick a certain order it screws you from finishing the game. Now i either have to grind for EXP or grind for gold and it just annoyed me.
And man i wanted to love it so bad. That art style and music is just perfect.
Amen, hope this design flaw will die out together with the git gud mentality.
Totally agree with this, grinding ain't no fun. Gaming should be enjoyable, engaging. Not a chore.
@NicolausCamp Absolutely right. I was surprised to see Bravely cited here as a positive example. It was grindy and repetitive. I got exactly 50% the way through it and then gave up.
Grinding is a necessity for those who are only willing to Button Mash.
@Axelay71 fun is subjective though. If so many people are responding against the article, it's as simple as understanding that it has an audience and that if a game focuses too much on grind and you don't enjoy it, simply don't buy it/play it.It also depends heavily on the gameplay and balance, since many people don't mind the grind in certain games but hate it on others.
An even shorter version: People find amusement in different things.
So I guess every dragon quest game ever made sucks?
Grinding has unfortunately gone way beyond just combat.
Like in Xenoblade 2, you grind for crystals or whatever they were called, you grind for experience, there is more grinding with diving and so on. It was my biggest gripe with the game (which I really liked overall).. In for Fire Emblem Three Houses, there are all kinds of things you have to "grind" for.
@FredsBodyDouble I don't think having grinding makes a game suck necessarily, but the games would be better without much more limited grinding. It has just become so extreme. This is one thing the Witcher 3 did quite well with. The grinding consisted of completing side quests which all tended to be quite interesting and made it feel a little less like grinding. Though the problem with the side quests was you were mostly told where to go so you didn't have to think much about them.
@roy130390
I appreciate what your saying, that's why I don't buy games like that. I prefer linear games with more focus on gameplay, level design, tight play mechanics. But each to there own.
@roboshort I thought the blade games did it pretty well with the excessive amount of quests. I can't speak for the Witcher 3, but it traditionally has been a part of JRPGs forever, and more recently, F2P games. I personally don't mind a little grinding. In the case of F2P games, I'd much rather grind than shell out cash.
I don't mind the grind aslong as the combat is fun, also games with auto combat options like persona 5 and dragon quest 11 are a blessing when grinding.
If there was no grind then most rpgs would be completed in half the time which would mean ls you would complete games quicker (a benefit to some)
I suppose it depends on the person, the game and the battle system , in persona 5 I enjoyed the grind but in caligula effect I stopped playing as the grind got too much especially with that battle system
Grinding relaxes me.. that said; having a long backlog of games to play does not.. as I have gotten older I just can't enjoy grinding anymore because theres so many games i wanna play before I die.
@FredsBodyDouble Yeah, true. Shelling out cash is far worse. It is individual preference. Some people enjoy grinding, but I think it is a minority. I enjoy it to an extent but I am limited on time so it does irk me a bit now.
I think Zelda BOTW did it right. The grinding primarily consisted of finding and solving puzzles so it required thought. And the korok seeds were mostly optional and you would just naturally find the amount that you needed.
@CurryPowderKeg79 Might and Magic: Clash of Heroes on the DS had the MOST FUN battle mechanic I've ever seen in a game. It was so much fun I actively sought out encounters. I guess I "did grinding"... but it was so enjoyable I didn't notice.
Dragon Quest III is a marvel of game design, and grinding is at its core. When it feels like a slog to grind the problem is often due to a poor combat system, uninspired character dynamics, setting, pacing, stakes, etc. When combat is actually meaningful and fun you forget you are even grinding.
@GrailUK I would say there are definite moments of grinding to add padding in the mid 10’s so they could write “120+ Hours” on the box
tbf, outside of the moon at the end of FF IV, I never felt the need to grind up to that point.
As long as have developers have quotas to meet and executives breathing down their necks, want to reach a certain gameplay length for the sake of a store page/box selling point, or are just plain lazy, grinding and content padding will exist in some shape and form. This problem has existed before many people on this site were BORN, and it's a problem that will continue after we're gone as well.
I don't understand why would anyone complain about something optional , you don't have to grind or max out your character to beat the game you know.
It's hard to always strike a balance; if you have to grind too much just to progress it definitely can feel like a chore, but inversely, like in SotN for me, I leveled up so much over the course of the game (wanted to find everything afterall) that the second half felt too easy.
Being able to adjust things on the fly is always a thing that would be nice to see considered, like the encounter toggle mentioned in the article.
But I love grinding...
JRPG we're meant for grinding. I respect your opinion but as a fan of said genre, this disappoint and saddens when someone don't like to put an "effort" and become lazy to beat the game.
If you want to get something, you need to work on it. Nothing is for nothing, or are you getting paid for not doing anything? That would be just lazy.
If you had to spend hours grinding on the moon in FFIV then you was playing the game super wrong dawg. That game is ridiculously easy to get through without any grinding. If you were playing the DS (or 3d) version then I can maybe understand as it's way harder and totally different with its balancing.
@Ralizah Very good point
Grinding is good if it's complimented by good mechanics or exploration. A good example is the choice in Minecraft to either get experience as you explore, mindlessly do an activity you like, or grind the materials to build a self sustaining farm. Another example would be grinding for certain items and stuff in BOTW. The combat and game feel is so good that I don't mind grinding.
Very good article. When I was younger with tons more free time, I didn't mind the grind as long as the battle mechanics were fun and the grinding paid off quickly (respectable amount of XP and money, etc. per fight). A lot of today's RPGs, three of which I'm working through currently (Ara Fell, Shadows of Adam, and Cosmic Star Heroine), move along rather snapily as long as you fight everything along the way. That's more than I could say for Final Fantasy I or 7th Saga to point out their heeeeeavily required (read: excessively required) grinding back in the day. But that's just my 2 cents, if you like excessive grind, then I love it
Or another way of looking at it, needing to grind is the result of poor gameplay by the player if you spend a little extra time battling in each area instead of trying to find the quickest route through, there's less requirement to grind to match the difficulty spike.
@Ultimapunch I came here to say that exact thing. I beat SNES version in grade school and a million times since, never felt there was a lull for grinding just to beat Zmus, somethings off there
Grinding being good or bad is entirely dependent on the results at the end and the way you grind in game. Look at Disgaea versus Ghost Recon Wildlands. Disgaea has different types of upgrades you can grind that are valuable and and serve purpose. Wildlands literally is full of fluff that does nothing so they can sell "Time Savers." It's an entire content/bloat chart that some games suck at (looking at you "Games as a Service") and others reward you for playing the game a lot.
I love Grinding in turn base jrpg, it is certainly not bad game design as that is only an subjective opinion piece by people's personal distaste.
but to read the comments against it is disheartening to me is likely the reason we lost ff as it used to be to favor the other half of the audience.
that said at this point i am kind of glad my favourite game "legend of dragoon" isn't getting any attention because it would most certainly turn into something its not.
@Bimmy-Lee @Hobbitgamer what does it all mean? Surely, SOMETHING is going on.
Now there is an age-old game question, isn’t it?
Grinding, farming, whatever... as long as it’s fun or worth doing to you in the end, then it’s not a waste of time.
As a kid, I had my first real grindfest playing Might and Magic on the Genesis at a friends house. We accidentally ran across these hidden enemies called Cuisinarts in some remote mountains. Utterly wrecked our party the first few tries, but eventually we turned the tables and milked those enemies for immense EXP and gear which broke the game wide open for us.
Grinding can be empowering and fun if you like the rest of the game enough to keep going.
Keep calm and grind on, people!
@Luigisghost669 only 2 hours? it ain't a real grind til your somewhere past 7 hours.
Final Fantasy 1-3 had some unbearable grinding, you're basically locked from progressing until you spend good 1-2h every now and then, preparing a perfect team to... cheese bosses. The RNG is your worst nightmare in those games, and sadly no known strategy can counter bad luck. I still have PTSD from certain moments (and countless soft resets) in that FF3 remake.
People complaining about grind AC Odyssey were just playing it wrong and were focused too much on the XP Booster. Odyssey like The Witcher 3 is a game designed around you playing and experiencing nearly everything it can offer, because of that the side content was giving a big push with Ubi wanting you to play that content alongside the main content, if you played the game like that then grinding was a non issue as both main and side content gave you enough to advance without needing to grind. Ultimately players thought it would play like previous AC games what weren't RPG's or BotW where you can go anywhere you like from the off. Odyssey was built to be an actual epic Greek Odyssey what lasts a long time and wasn't designed for you to quickly rush through the story.
Totally agree with this article! I do not have the time for grind. It destroyed all enjoyment in all Monster Hunter games for me. It killed Starlink, and that was just Ubisoft's "do the same thing 3 times" grind. It genuinely feels like a they made a 1hr game into a 10hr one solely though repetition. It feels cheap and lazy, on the development side. With free to play games it feels like someone has ruined their own game, but will let you pay them to fix it. And yes, with Ubisoft it feels like a smack in the face when you pay sixty dollars, only to be marketed to and treated like you would be on a free smartphone game. I don't like paying a second time and I don't like grind. Rant over
Grinding is fine for teens but for working adults it’s a waste of time
Of the game's I've played, the ones that provided the most fun while grinding was SMT IV and Strange Journey. There were so many side quests to work on while you leveled up and it gave you plenty of time to formulate new demons. They did take an eternity to finish though.
So many good games ideas ruined by the grind. 3ds games in general suffer from level and repetition grind built into them and in particular i feel during the 360 era levels should have been eliminated.
People are losing time faster than ever now and now time is more precious than ever. For me its simple either you game is well made like outerworlds or it is a time waster. Its hard not getting a game because you know its broken or wasting your time with artificial pandering but as a gamer your energy and mental state will be in a much better place if you do.
I somehow don't mind level grinding, but I hate grinding for item drops.
I disagree. The grind helps me shut off my brain and relax. Playing Monsster Hunter or Disgaea or Stardew Valley while listening to a podcast is the ideal way to play for me.
So I prefer the grind. I played a %# miner in EVE Online. There is nothing more brain dead than that and I loved it so much!
@sonicmeerkat When level grinding you’re getting something with every fight, but item drops are usually random, I get ya.
Grinding is dreadful game design. If you want to give me the option to cheese the game in an overpowered way then just make it a cheat switch I can flip whenever I feel like it.
That’s all that grinding really is - a cheat switch that takes hours to move.
I’d also say that many features of RPGs (including levels and excessive loot) are dreadful design features too. They’ve got worse since the 16 bit era as modern RPGs have layered complex sub systems on top of each other. “Oh but you don’t have to grind if you set up your team in exactly this relatively unintuitive and undocumented way DUH” is not an argument in favour of keeping grinding - it’s just highlighting a different way in which the game is badly designed!
A battle system with genuine strategy is what’s needed but very few have that.
Grinding can be a nice mindless way to pass time.
Kind of like squeezing a stress ball..
I like grinding while watching a movie or sitting on the bus.
It can also sometimes act as a playground for experimenting with different tactics and strategies, making you a better player.
@nessisonett it is full of grind. It has a reputation for having more grind than the previous games. I have played the game, and turned it off.
I love JRPG's, but suffer from a chronic case of old-fashioned game mechanics and an obsession with extremely long playthroughs. Which is ESPECIALLY unforgivable taking into account the fact that games such as Chrono Trigger, Earthbound, the Mario&Luigi series have proved this is quite unnecessary.
But hey, if that's your thing, be my guest
Me. I love the grind. As long as the gameplay is fun and the loop is rewarding. Ill fight the same boss 100 times for a loot chance. Grind time baby
I will grind for loot but not exp.
I don't mind grinding as long as its not done poorly. But it does not make it a bad gameplay design. Its simply a feature. Don't play rpgs and your problem is solved.
Agreed. Back when I first started playing RPGs (on the Master System with Miracle Warriors and Phantasy Star) I didn't mind it so much. These days I just don't have the time or inclination to spend an hour or more grinding just to progress to the next area. A few months ago I got Ys Origin, but I gave up on it about halfway through after I realized I needed to grind 40 minutes for each boss. That's just not worth it now, which is saying something because every run I ever did of Ys 1 involved grinding as soon as I started the game until I could afford the most expensive sword
The reason I like (good) rpgs so much is to level up by doing side quests and exploring. I like to be so overpowered at the end that I can steamroll the final bosses. But yeah, some games do this so much better than others.
'I can already hear you asking “what would you suggest as an alternative?”, but this isn’t a one size fits all situation.'
Sure there is. Make the game shorter.
Gamers and - in turn - the industry, assign massive value to how many hours of play a game provides. The problem is that in an 80-hour game, you're only being entertained for about 10% of the time. The rest is busywork, grinding, or travelling through empty open worlds. Sure, that can create an atmosphere, but it only works very rarely.
Tighten the games up. Get rid of the grind. Remove the padding, and people would be able to consume more high-quality entertainment experiences in the same amount of time.
I personally like grinding because it makes me feel more invested in a game's story. If I sink a ton of time and effort into my party then it helps create a sense that we've really gone on a long journey together. But if a game is really short and hardly requires any time or effort, I can't really get into the story as much because it makes me feel like the game is trying to create these high stakes without really giving me a reason to care about the outcome.
@NintendoByNature Grinding....fest....bore.... I smell an 18 mature idea cooking
@HobbitGamer if I had to play chicken with anyone it would be the grind. I mean, just take a look at it's track record. Grind here grind there it's there to stay thru the next fiscal year.
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